28th September 2005
CONTINUED FROM PART ONE OF THE DEBATE
Mr. McCormack: Who costed the site?
Mr. McDowell: When looking at the cost of developing Thornton Hall, one must take into account that Mountjoy Prison is old and inefficient and that the Prison Service estimates that by replacing it at Thornton, we will achieve operational savings of €30 million to €40 million per year. In addition, its cost is being funded in part by the sale of Shanganagh, which will eventually yield between €15 million and €20 million, and the sale of the Mountjoy site which should realise between €60 million and €90 million. Furthermore, freeing up the site of the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum will bring more than €100 million to the State.
Mr. Costello: It is worth €200 million.
Mr. McDowell: That may be true and I will be glad if it proves to be so. When Deputy Costello has the courage to examine that place, justify its retention and say it is the correct environment in which to keep psychiatrically ill people, I will be glad to hear his arguments.
Mr. Costello: Nobody wants a psychiatric hospital on the same site as a prison.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: The Minister should say why he is afraid of the Comptroller and Auditor General's verdict.
Mr. McDowell: There were not even television sets in the rooms when I visited yet those detained in Dundrum are mainly innocent of any criminal misdemeanour.
If we are really interested in value for money we should have the Comptroller and Audit General examine the significant amounts of money wasted when Labour and Fine Gael were last in Government. The amount wasted on prison overtime alone because of their failure to tackle that problem would have bought the site at Thornton without any difficulty.
Mr. Hayes: What about electronic voting?
Mr. McDowell: I remember writing an article in 1995 for the Sunday Independent asking the last Fine Gael Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to deal with the overtime issue. Nothing was done. Diddly squat.
Fine Gael and Labour were a disaster for the criminal justice system. Like a swarm of locusts, they left devastation in their wake.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: What about openness and transparency?
Mr. McGinley: What about the CAB?
Mr. McDowell: At a time when there was gross overcrowding and appalling conditions in our prisons, to the extent that the revolving door policy was operating at warp speed with prisoners being released shortly after they arrived, when one in five prisoners was out on temporary release, the rainbow Government, that slump coalition, cancelled plans to develop more prison capacity and cut back on expenditure generally.
Mr. McGinley: The Minister's Government wanted to release the murderers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe some months ago.
Mr. McDowell: That coalition chose populist and profligate policies which neglected law and order. Can it really be the same Labour and Fine Gael that presided over the revolving door syndrome who are now saying, as one of their number has said today, that we do not need a replacement for Mountjoy Prison?
Mr. Costello: Will the Minister respond to the question?
Mr. McEntee: The Minister is talking rubbish.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: Why is the Minister running from the Comptroller and Auditor General?
Mr. McDowell: Have those parties forgotten how they brought the criminal justice system to its knees? Let me remind them that when the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform tried to take action to alleviate the overcrowding that spawned the revolving door, her own Cabinet colleagues pulled the rug from under her feet. Opposition Members have short memories.
Mr. McEntee: The Minister should be working to protect citizens in their communities.
Mr. McDowell: As to the cost of the land, every person in Dublin knows one cannot purchase land suitable for future development in the Dublin area at farm land prices.
I will conclude by making one further point.
Mr. McEntee: The Minister has said nothing of substance.
Mr. McDowell: I am confident that in five or seven years, when the full campus at Thornton Hall is completed, the public will look back on these days and be grateful for the foresight and leadership the Government has shown in making a major investment on its behalf in the Prison Service.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: Why will the Minister not allow the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine the deeds?
Mr. McDowell: I am equally confident the public will look back with derision at Deputy Jim O'Keeffe's argument that Coolquay, at €320,000 per acre, represented value for money while Thornton Hall, at €199,000 per acre and just 2,500 yd. away, was a rip-off.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: People are not concerned with what will happen in five or six years' time. They are worried about money that is being wasted now.
Mr. McDowell: Tonight's debate is a classic example of the politically bankrupt efforts of those who can do nothing and have never done anything but attack those who are doing something.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: Will the Minister answer the question? Why will he not allow the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine the deeds?
Mr. McDowell: There is no scandal here. Opposition Members have displayed nothing but opportunism combined with cluelessness. It is bad enough that it should come from Deputies Jim O'Keeffe and Costello but worse that they should find allies in some sections of the media, on whom we should have been able to rely to distinguish between truth and falsehood.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: We are all out of step except the Minister.
Mr. McCormack: Where are the Minister's colleagues?
Mr. Hayes: I propose to share time with Deputies Neville and Perry. I want to bring the Minister to task in regard to the issues he has addressed in this debate. This is a simple debate on the question of why he wasted so much taxpayers' money in buying land for a prison That is the subject of the motion but the Minister spent the last 20 minutes defending himself and his position in Government and trying to derail the record of other parties when in government. The visitors in the Gallery are here to discover why this prison is being built on their doorstep.
As a member of the Committee on Public Accounts I listened in utter frustration as this matter was discussed. We are all aware of the reasons put forward by the Minister and the Governments that this prison should be built at Thornton Hall. The reality is that the Committee on Public Accounts, the sole watchdog for the Oireachtas which has monitored the spending of public money for many years, could not examine the wastage for which the Government is responsible in the last number of months. This is where the problem lies. The Comptroller and Auditor General should have been allowed the independent voice to consider whose position is correct on this matter, whether the Minister or RTE.
What is missing in this debate is openness and transparency.
Mr. McEntee: That is all we want.
Mr. Hayes: The Minister's role is to represent and defend the policies of his Government but he has spent 20 minutes criticising RTE, defending himself and criticising the Opposition. All that was required was simply to allow the Committee on Public Accounts or the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine this matter. We were told that because the deal was not finalised, we could not examine it until the money was spent and wasted. This represents a slap in the face for the Committee on Public Accounts and this House. The Government has shown no regard for the concerns of the public, those listening in the Gallery in particular. The proposed new prison is located miles from my home - I have no particular interest in that regard- but I contend it is a scandalous waste of money by the Minister. Moreover, he is afraid to permit the only form of independent scrutiny available in these matters.
This debate is useless unless we allow for some transparent mechanism of scrutiny. However, it serves to bring into focus the necessity that this type of issue should never arise in future. That is the only contribution I will make to this debate. It is unfair of the Government to lecture RTE and Opposition Members without providing any transparent way for the public to examine how this money was spent. It should never happen again.
Mr. Neville: I welcome the opportunity to deal with this matter. I am pleased the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Tim O'Malley, is also in attendance. My contribution will be somewhat low-key because of the sensitivity around this issue.
I am extremely concerned about the placing of a psychiatric hospital beside a prison. Such an approach may be beneficial from the point of view of management but it serves to stigmatise psychiatric illness. I notice the Minister of State is looking to the ceiling.
Mr. T. O'Malley: I am wondering what the Deputy's party ever did about the issue. We have taken some positive action.
Mr. Neville: I am aware much discussion took place on this issue between the Departments of Health and Children and Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The former was initially dissatisfied with the proposal. Obviously, the senior Minister's view prevailed and a lot of concern exist within the psychiatric service--
Mr. McDowell: Is there anything stigmatising about a person lying on the floor of a padded cell in a foetal position and dressed only in underwear? What did Deputy Neville's party ever do about padded cells? Absolutely nothing.
Mr. Neville: The Minister's answer --
Mr. McEntee: What was done about the hunger strikes?
An Ceann Comhairle: Order please.
Mr. McDowell: Long on talk, no action.
Mr. McEntee: Charlie Haughey and his Government did nothing during the hunger strikes when people were dying.
An Ceann Comhairle: Members will allow Deputy Neville to speak without interruption.
Mr. Neville: The Minister's answer to everything is that if it was not done within any two years in the past 20, he should not be held accountable. That is what he is saying.
Mr. Perry: Give them the money.
Mr. Neville: The Government now has the money and the opportunity. A lot of concern exists with regard to the stigmatising of mental health. One of the reasons that mental health is not prioritised is because it is not a political issue. People do not raise the issue because of the stigma that surrounds mental health. Regardless of whether it is called a campus, by putting a mental hospital beside a prison, the two will go together in the public mind. That is not acceptable. The matter should be re-examined if possible.
Mr. McDowell: Does Deputy Neville know the rate of mental illness among prisoners?
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: The Minister should listen to someone with a genuine point of view on the matter.
Mr. Neville: The Irish Penal Reform Trust informs us that up to 40% of prisoners suffer from psychiatric conditions. Professor Anthony Clare made strong comments on this issue but due to time constraints I will not quote him.
Mr. McDowell: Should there be a convenient psychiatric facility to deal with their illnesses?
Mr. Neville: A psychiatric facility should exist within prisons and a proper psychiatric service should be available to prisoners. Anybody with a serious psychiatric illness should be in hospital. If somebody breaks a leg, suffers pneumonia or has a heart attack, he or she is taken to hospital. However, somebody who contracts a serious psychiatric illness is dealt with inadequately in prison. The Minister must admit that fact.
Mr. McDowell: The Opposition did nothing about that issue.
Mr. Neville: The Minister mentioned padded cells. He organised a committee to investigate that issue but did not include a psychiatrist or psychologist on it.
Mr. McDowell: I am doing something. I did not ask psychiatrists how to do the job. It is being done.
An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Neville without interruption.
Mr. Ring: We want to get a few of them to look at the Government.
Mr. Neville: The Minister admitted that 78% of those put in padded cells are there for their own safety because they are suicidal. However, he did not even consider that a psychiatrist would have an opinion in dealing with this issue.
Mr. McDowell: I modernised the padded cell system to comply with best international standards.
Mr. Neville: I do not accept that.
Mr. Costello: The Minister knows best.
Mr. Neville: The Minister knows best in everything, does he not?
Mr. McDowell: The Minister does, others talk.
Mr. Neville: Maybe the Minister would consider the idea of special psychiatric courts for people with mental illnesses. Many prisoners are imprisoned for petty crimes. Alternatives to prison might involve a detailed psychiatric programme to address their psychiatric problems. We have examined this service in other countries. It would be a means of getting at the problem prior to imprisoning those people. It is accepted that in prison, the psychiatric condition deteriorates substantially because of confinement. We must have realistic programmes.
Mr. McDowell: I agree.
Mr. Neville: I ask the Minister to re-examine the proposal to put a psychiatric hospital beside a prison.
Mr. Perry: If I had my way, I would have this Government in padded cells.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: Well done.
Mr. Perry: This is another rip-off Government which is intoxicated in power. That is clear in every move it makes.
Mr. McGinley: There is no Government there at all.
Mr. Perry: I have the Comptroller and Auditor General's report in my hand, which is a catalogue of misappropriations and unwise spending. Some €48 billion is spent through different Departments. The appropriation account for 2004 makes alarming reading. I am sure the Minister's decision will be scrutinised and will not stack up. Due diligence was not carried out.
The exorbitant costs and haste involved in this deal by the Minister has left a sour taste in many mouths. The Government committee responsible for this spent eight months looking at alternative sites to Thornton Hall but only spent eight days considering Thornton Hall before it committed to buying that site. The Minister raised the €3 million deposit but I am certain that, in terms of the amount of money which is being paid for that site, the owner would allow the deferral of the sale beyond 1 October and wait for his lotto prize. There is not reason to rush to close this deal. Groups in the locality are calling on the Minister to halt proceedings before the final sale goes through.
Was approval given by the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Department of Finance according to the 1994 guidelines? Was the evaluation carried out and was clearance given by the Minister for Finance to agree the sale? That is equally important.
There were 30 expressions of interest from other parties regarding sites. The owner of Thornton Hall made no such expression of interest. On the contrary, the committee approached the owner of the land and tendered for it. As has been well documented, €30 million of taxpayers' money was used to pay for this site. I do not call this rip-off Ireland but rip-off Government. The country is being ripped off. The Government has a large cheque book yet it asks what previous Governments have done. The State never had more money to spend but it is misspending it. On the open market the site would have sold for €6 million. The Government cannot ignore this fact. It is paying 500% more than the going price. It confounds reason. This Government must explain its decision to pay over the odds for the site. The Government is getting money left, right and centre. There is taxation of tax. The best contract of all is a Government one. If a Government cheque book is used to buy land, an auctioneer will quadruple the price.
There have been objections from the psychiatric profession over the suitability of this site for the relocation of the Central Mental Hospital. If the committee had taken longer than eight days to discuss the site's merits, they may have realised this themselves. Due diligence, assessment and evaluation were not carried out. This Government is riding an ego train. Intoxication by power is a dangerous ailment. Padded cells would suit some in this Government. The current site of the Central Mental Hospital and Mountjoy Prison are obviously worth a lot of money, up to €250 million. The concerns of people in the region are also important. It is appalling to think that flashing euro signs have allowed the Government to negotiate with taxpayers' money in such a haphazard way.
Even disregarding the huge mark up of the cost of the site, serious questions remain about its suitability. Consideration must be given to the fact that 1,000 prison staff will need to access the area, as well as visitors for those who are incarcerated. However, there is no suitable road access to the site. The surrounding area has a small population and a three teacher national school is located nearby. The water and sanitation services needed to service a prison and hospital are currently unavailable. These costs will add up. Another example of the inadequacy of the area is that there is no public lighting. The infrastructure is unsuitable for this type of development. I have no doubt that there will not be much change from €250 million when this site is complete. I guarantee that the Comptroller and Auditor General will carry out an assessment. We have witnessed an example, given by Mr. John Purcell, of public private partnerships and the inability to get value for money.
Millions of euros of taxpayers' money will be spent dragging this vanity project through the courts. A €3 million deposit was put down for the 150 acre site. The remaining 90% of the money needed to close the deal has to be put down by 1 October.
It is a desperate indictment of the Government's inefficiency that it is continuing to evade questions on this issue, so close to the deal being closed.
What has the Minister to say about the women's prison built only six years ago at a cost of €20 million? There is no forward planning.
Mr. McDowell: Drugs are going into it over the wall.
Mr. Perry: What about those people who live in the locality? They have been denied and frustrated by the Minister.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: Is the Minister afraid of the auditors? He has no answer.
Mr. Costello: He is too busy talking to listen.
Mr. Perry: The Minister is arrogant and intoxicated with power.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: The Government will get its answer from the people fairly soon.
Mr. Perry: It is clearly evident that the newly found affection of the Minister for the well-being of many people is not washing well.
Debate adjourned.
Respect for rights in the penal system with prison as a last resort.